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 Post subject: Re: SMT + Toasters?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:44 pm 
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I think this is the solderpaste stencil service the other engineer at my work used six or eight years ago:
https://www.pololu.com/product/446

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 Post subject: Re: SMT + Toasters?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:29 pm 
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SamCoVT wrote:
If your boards are single sided and smaller parts (eg. no big chonky inductors or connectors), the skillet method works really well. It has much better visibility than the toaster oven method so you can easily see when your board is done. For small boards, I have a hot plate at work that is used specifically for this purpose (I also have access to an industrial 6-zone reflow oven there as well, but will often just hot-plate smaller boards when making prototypes).

I do recommend using a stencil and no-clean solderpaste. I use a laser cutter at work to cut stencils out of mylar, but I've also milled them out of brass shim stock from McMaster using a V-bit and you can also just order them from oshstencils for pretty cheap if you are in the US (the shipping is more than the stencil if out of the US). Anywhere in the 3-mil to 5-mil (1mil = 1 thousandth of an inch) range for thickness is a good place to start.

One note about solderpaste - it's just like heat sink grease... if you get some on your hands and wipe them on your pants, you will just have it on your hands AND on your pants.

Some other folks mentioned a stereo microscope, and I will add my vote for that as well. I liked the ones at work so much that I bought my own for home. I usually add a Barlow lens, which is an add-on objective lens that screws in on the bottom of the scope. A 0.5X Barlow lens will cut the magnification in half, but it also doubles the focal length. That gives a lot more room for a soldering iron and hands, and it's removable if you need the magnification back.

I've also used video microscopes and those work reasonably well, but the stereo vision makes it much easier to see things in 3D. I also solder through-hole components under my microscope and do SMT component placement with tweezers under it as well.

I prefer the "Zoom" style of stereo microscopes, but they are more expensive. My home unit is an AmScope brand with widefield eyepieces and a 0.5X Barlow lens and I paid around $400 for it. It's a big investment, but it was worth it for me and I use it for non-electronics things too.


I'm also looking at AmScope... do you mind sharing the model/configuration you opted to buy? I've been using a Luxo magnifying lamp, which does pretty good for larger SMT devices, but as I get into the finer pitch parts, a stereo microscope will be much better.

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 Post subject: Re: SMT + Toasters?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 2:50 am 
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GARTHWILSON wrote:
LOL, I don't use any of those, nor do I use longer pads for hand-soldering.  I'm nearsighted (although not half as much so as Chad), and I used to say it's only a small exaggeration that at 6 or 8 inches I could see germs without glasses.  My method is at viewtopic.php?p=48875#p48875, and the results show in the picture two posts above that.


Chuckle! That one photo has gotten nearly 11,000 views. Guess there is a fair amount of interest in using SMT packages. :shock:

Back when I started with POC V1.0 (14 years ago), I had sufficient close-up vision to allow me to manually solder both SOJ and SOIC packages under nothing more that a 5-diopter, lighted magnifier. Alas, a failed procedure on my left eye, along with steadily advancing age, caused enough vision loss that I now struggle to work with 100-mil parts. I do have a set of machinist’s goggles that are 16 diopter, which makes close inspection of solder joints fairly easy for me. However, the field of view at that magnification is too narrow for me to actually solder parts.

Since late 2015, I have had to impose on others to solder the SMT packages for me. That wasn’t too big a deal when there were only two or three in the system. These days, it has becoming increasingly difficult to not use SMT, which creates a problem for me. I hate imposing on anyone to do what I used to be able to do on my own. :(

sburrow wrote:
Garth, I found that topic created by BDD:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3509

I see he gooped it on thick, and his conclusion was to try a stencil next time but didn't get around to trying it.

I thought I could control where the paste went, but it had other ideas and ended up making a mess. :D

My vision problems started right after I had done my reflow experiments and for a while, I couldn’t see well enough to do any electronic work—it was right after surgery on my left eye. So I didn’t return to the reflow experiment, but plan to do so at some point—I still have the setup, including the kitchen timer I used to time the various temperature phases.

Quote:
One thing that was confusing to me was BDD mentioned the solder that was already 'printed' onto the board, but then he used solder paste as well. Are BOTH needed? I had thought it was only the solder paste that was needed. I also found it interesting that so much turned into so little (relatively). It's like it nearly vanished, minus the few bridges that resulted.

What you are referring to is the reflow that the PCB house applies to exposed, bare copper. The usual reflow alloy, if not building to RoHS specs, is HASL, which is a near-eutectic tin/lead alloy, approximating 63/37 solder (be sure to specify HASL if you are manually soldering your creation). During reflowing at the point where liquidity is achieved, the solder carried in the solder paste will combine with the HASL to form the finished joint, ideally producing a nice fillet where the pin meets the pad.

As I learned from sources and observation, it is the HASL that contributes the most to the process. That is, the finished joint is more HASL than the solder in the paste. The paste’s main purpose is to flux the joints, act as a heat transfer agent and help bring the HASL that is in contact with the part’s pins to a state of liquidity. Only a thin film of paste is needed, the application of which is facilitated by use of a stencil and a small squeegee-like tool to spread the paste.

SamCoVT wrote:
One note about solderpaste - it's just like heat sink grease... if you get some on your hands and wipe them on your pants, you will just have it on your hands AND on your pants.

Yep! Solder paste is also mildly toxic and should be kept away from your skin, as your body will absorb some lead from it. I recommend that when handling solder paste, you use some gloves like the kind your proctologist wears while probing your nether regions. They will keep the paste away from your skin without dulling your sense of tactile feel.

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 Post subject: Re: SMT + Toasters?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 11:42 am 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
I hate imposing on anyone to do what I used to be able to do on my own. :(


I definitely feel that. I hate imposing on others in any possible way. But, there is a time and season for everything in life.

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Quote:
One thing that was confusing to me was BDD mentioned the solder that was already 'printed' onto the board, but then he used solder paste as well. Are BOTH needed? I had thought it was only the solder paste that was needed. I also found it interesting that so much turned into so little (relatively). It's like it nearly vanished, minus the few bridges that resulted.


What you are referring to is the reflow that the PCB house applies to exposed, bare copper. The usual reflow alloy, if not building to RoHS specs, is HASL, which is a near-eutectic tin/lead alloy, approximating 63/37 solder (be sure to specify HASL if you are manually soldering your creation). During reflowing at the point where liquidity is achieved, the solder carried in the solder paste will combine with the HASL to form the finished joint, ideally producing a nice fillet where the pin meets the pad.


JLCPCB uses HASL, that's the default option, and I have used it for each of my boards. So then, my boards are potentially already ready for SMT parts using solder paste + oven? I don't need to tell JLCPCB to do anything different than they have already done for my 10 other boards?

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
gloves like the kind your proctologist wears while probing your nether regions.


Eep! A time and a season for everything in life, it seems.

So, part of my interest in this topic started when I watched Dave's latest video, an update on the X16 (here https://youtu.be/nyByDNQuMMI). He showed how they assemble the VERA daughterboard, all SMT parts. Place the components, pop it in the oven, presto! THEN he showed how they are trying to quickly assemble the motherboard with all DIP parts. He uses a huge solder dipping station, which basically just holds a ton of molten solder in a bath with nails coming up out of it. They place the board on the nails and the machine dips the board in the liquid solder. Thing is, the extreme heat immediately warps the board and they are still having problems getting it to work correctly.

Which then is best, SMT or DIP? Makes me wonder, if the X16 won't be sold as a solder-it-yourself kit, why still have DIP-only parts?

Thanks!

Chad


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 Post subject: Re: SMT + Toasters?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:32 pm 
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sburrow wrote:
JLCPCB uses HASL, that's the default option, and I have used it for each of my boards. So then, my boards are potentially already ready for SMT parts using solder paste + oven? I don't need to tell JLCPCB to do anything different than they have already done for my 10 other boards?

Correct. Note that JLCPCB can provide stencils as well. In fact, they can stuff boards to your specs, although I can’t say how economical that might be in small quantities, especially in the case of a new and hence unproven design.

Quote:
THEN he showed how they are trying to quickly assemble the motherboard with all DIP parts. He uses a huge solder dipping station, which basically just holds a ton of molten solder in a bath with nails coming up out of it. They place the board on the nails and the machine dips the board in the liquid solder. Thing is, the extreme heat immediately warps the board and they are still having problems getting it to work correctly.

Back when everything was through-hole, wave soldering was a widely-used production method. If they are having warpage problems, they have a bad setup. A properly set up wave soldering system will produce flawless joints without board damage. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. 8)

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Which then is best, SMT or DIP?

Best for what? :D

In terms of production economy, SMT is the hands-down winner, as it lends itself to a high degree of automated assembly.

In terms of system performance, the physically-smaller PCB layout that may be had with SMT is theoretically better than that attainable with a system using only through-hole parts. However, bad layouts are readily achieved with either technology.

For the hobbyist, through-hole usually means an easier build. So that could be considered “better.”

Quote:
Makes me wonder, if the X16 won't be sold as a solder-it-yourself kit, why still have DIP-only parts?

That’s a good question. However, it could be some parts are more readily obtained in through-hole packages, or are cheaper, or...

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 Post subject: Re: SMT + Toasters?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:49 pm 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Back when everything was through-hole, wave soldering was a widely-used production method. If they are having warpage problems, they have a bad setup.
What Chad described doesn't sound like wave soldering. Instead it sounds as if the entire board is lowered all at once onto the flat surface of undisturbed molten solder in a vat. But AIUI wave soldering means the PCB isn't exposed all at once. Instead it gets wetted from one end to the other by a wave that's somehow produced on the surface of the liquid solder. (I'm guessing the wave is maintained in one place and it's the PCB that moves. Doubtless a video of this could be found online...)

-- Jeff

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 Post subject: Re: SMT + Toasters?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:58 pm 
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Dr Jefyll wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Back when everything was through-hole, wave soldering was a widely-used production method. If they are having warpage problems, they have a bad setup.


What Chad described doesn't sound like wave soldering. Instead it sounds as if the entire board is lowered all at once onto the flat surface of undisturbed molten solder in a vat. But AIUI wave soldering means the PCB isn't exposed all at once. Instead it gets wetted from one end to the other by a wave that's somehow produced on the surface of the liquid solder. (I'm guessing the wave is maintained in one place and it's the PCB that moves. Doubtless a video of this could be found online...)

-- Jeff


It is definitely not wave soldering, I just checked out what that is and what I saw was not that at all. Instead, it's more like what Jeff is saying, a vat of molten solder, and the board is lowered down into it.

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
That’s a good question. However, it could be some parts are more readily obtained in through-hole packages, or are cheaper, or...


I doubt it. The 6502, RAM, ROM, and VIA's are all easily found in PLCC or smaller packages. The daughterboards they use are all SMT. I think the original idea was to make it hobbyist friendly for solder-it-yourself kits, but they changed their mind at some point because they didn't want to put time or money into "customer support" on that end. The logic is sound, but instead of buying new SMT friendly boards (or getting them donated for free like every other time), they pushed forward with the old plan, found it was a terrible time sink, and bought a massive soldering machine to try to compensate, which has yet to work properly.

Dave did mention they are now working on a "version 2" of the board, which I suspect would be all SMT parts because it is much smaller than their current board.

Chad


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 Post subject: Re: SMT + Toasters?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:09 pm 
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floobydust wrote:
I'm also looking at AmScope... do you mind sharing the model/configuration you opted to buy? I've been using a Luxo magnifying lamp, which does pretty good for larger SMT devices, but as I get into the finer pitch parts, a stereo microscope will be much better.

Attachment:
File comment: AmScope sm-1tsz-v203 Trinocular Stereo Zoom Microscope
stereo_scope.png
stereo_scope.png [ 58.11 KiB | Viewed 1092 times ]
The closest to my configuration is the sm-1tsz-v203, which comes with both a 2X and 0.5X Barlow lens and also has a trinocular port (allows adding a camera, but you have to pull a knob that steals the view from the left eyepiece to send the image up to the camera). It's worth noting that the marketing department has gotten to the specs. It's listed as a 3.5X-90X scope, but it's actually a 7-45X with a 4" working distance and if you install the 0.5X Barlow lens (recommended) it becomes a 3.5-22.5X scope with 8" working distance. You can install the 2X Barlow lens instead to make it 14-90X, but I don't find magnification that high to be useful and the 2" working depth isn't useful for me either.

You could save a few dollars by buying the 7-45X version of that scope and adding just the 0.5X Barlow lens (part # SM05 for the SM series scopes). I added a home-built LED light to mine, but they sell those too. At the higher magnification, you will need more light.

I just removed the slide clips from the base and I work directly on that surface. At work, we have the boom stand mount and that's nice because you can locate the scope over any work surface, but it does cost more. You can also make your own mount for it - any vertical rod of the correct diameter that can support the weight will work.


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 Post subject: Re: SMT + Toasters?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 9:10 pm 
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Dr Jefyll wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Back when everything was through-hole, wave soldering was a widely-used production method. If they are having warpage problems, they have a bad setup.
What Chad described doesn't sound like wave soldering. Instead it sounds as if the entire board is lowered all at once onto the flat surface of undisturbed molten solder in a vat. But AIUI wave soldering means the PCB isn't exposed all at once. Instead it gets wetted from one end to the other by a wave that's somehow produced on the surface of the liquid solder. (I'm guessing the wave is maintained in one place and it's the PCB that moves. Doubtless a video of this could be found online...)

-- Jeff

Way back when I was in the corporate world, my then-employer used both methods for production-soldering through-hole boards. We generically referred to the manufacturing process as “wave soldering,” although the immersion technique, as you described, works with a static, molten solder bath.

As I recall, the immersion process setup was a touchy business—temperature had to be narrowly maintained and immersion depth had to be very closely controlled to avoid accidentally getting solder on the component side and making a big mess. Fluxing was also somewhat tricky. Immersion’s one big advantage was product throughput was higher than with wave soldering—a relatively quick dip of the board was all that was needed to solder everything.

However, immersion soldering proved to have a higher defect rate than the slower, but more consistent wave system, and also used more solder to do the job. We only used the immersion method for a year or so. The defect rate with wave soldering was nearly zero, but around 10-15 percent with immersion solder, if memory correctly serves me. Defects due to soldering could be fixed, of course, but that meant bench labor and its cost.

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 Post subject: Re: SMT + Toasters?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 9:13 pm 
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sburrow wrote:
Dave did mention they are now working on a "version 2" of the board, which I suspect would be all SMT parts because it is much smaller than their current board.

If the customer isn’t expected to do their own board-level assembly, then all-SMT makes a lot of sense...smaller PCB, better potential for high performance, automated assembly, wider choice of components and vendors, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: SMT + Toasters?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:06 pm 
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If you have a glass top stove, just use a sheet of aluminum foil directly on top of the burner and under the circuit board. once the solder has flowed, just slide it off. Heats up much quicker and cools down at a good rate too.

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 Post subject: Re: SMT + Toasters?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:08 am 
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That's a thought; I have a glass topped electric stove at this house (and it's a bugger to clean!) though childhood memories of aluminium foil in a gas flame...

That's unlikely to work with an induction hob, though!

Thanks Bill,

Neil


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